Shakespeare Greenheart & Nasreddin Shifflett books now available:
and both print and e-book versions at Amazon
Raven Mack just released two books of poetry – Shakespeare
Greenheart, and Nasreddin Shifflett – the first two in a series of four
containing what he calls “freestyle sonnets”. He also recently put out a
musical project with a young producer called
C.S.X.T.C.. Additionally, he is
part of me, or I am part of him, or one way or the other we occupy the same
physical space although our individual motivations are very different.
Raven Mack still believes in the meritocracy. In our lengthy private
discussions, I’ve tried to dissuade him from this naiveté, and encouraged him
to cultivate a detachment from any possible fruits to his creative endeavors,
not really so much as a jaded perspective but for his own self-preservation.
Because that’s not how the world works, at least not that simply. One of the
trademarks of human nature – one that seems different than the rest of nature –
is to overly complicate things, and to underestimate the strength of simple but
complex.
Anyways, with the arrival of these two new books of sonnets,
I sat down with Raven Mack to interview him about Shakespeare Greenheart and
Nasreddin Shifflett, as well as his other creative works, mostly as a partially
patronizing act, but also because I feel sorry for him, for still believing in
things that aren’t real.
- The Dirt-God
Dirt-God: So Shakespeare Greenheart and Nasreddin Shifflett
are the first two books in this freestyle sonnet series. What’s the series all
about, and what are “freestyle sonnets”?
Raven Mack: I started writing sonnets a couple years back on
the spot, like sit down and whip one out without thinking too hard about it,
much like freestyle rapping in the sense you were minimizing conscious mind
that planned shit out and letting sub-conscious or unconscious or combination
of both or all three or whatever the fuck it is that decides to speak in the
immediate moment speak first and final. I got to where I was doing them in ten
minutes, asking people for subjects, just whipping them out. So I started
thinking about doing crowns of sonnets, which is where last line of one becomes
first line of the next, and you can just run with that, or actually have the
last line of last sonnet be the same as the first line of the first sonnet, to
create a circle. Old school dudes used to do coronas of sonnets, which would be
a hundred just like that. But you could also do a heroic crown which was when
you’d have fourteen sonnets connect in that circle, but also the last line of
each of the fourteen sonnets composed a fifteenth heroic crown sonnet. Being
I’m ruled by math dork nonsense inside my own head, like counting steps,
repeating numerical patterns, total secret to-my-self O.C.D. shit like that, it
felt like a good idea to do thiat, and make it a project, to force
over-indulging, which also tends to be a thing that rules me. At first I was
gonna do 69 heroic crowns, because 69 is kinda my lucky number, but as I
started doing them, for whatever reason, it made more sense to do 76, so that
they made four quarters of 19.
DG: So how do you write them? Where do you write them? What has been your
process for conducting this project?
RM: Well, I tend to have multiple heroic crowns going on at once,
compartmentalizing them by notebook or computer device. Like I always have an
ongoing one on my work desktop, and a couple different handwritten notebooks as
well. I had a notebook a friend gave me with a raven in the boots on the cover
which I only used in the gardens on both sides of the lawn at UVA during my
lunch break, and I’d shoot for two or three per lunch break, but if I did one
and that felt like it, I’d stop. I filled that notebook up, and most of the
ones in there are in these two collections. I have a notebook that’s only for
being in the woods at home, a tiny composition books like one of those mini-ones
that I can only write in all caps in, all types of dumb rules I make so that I
can have four or five different ones going on at once. Currently, the most work
I’m doing is in a composition book where I’m working from both ends on separate
heroic crowns, and I’ve been shooting for three for that every day at lunch, in
about thirty minutes, plus writing one to three more on my desktop at work in
free moments stolen back from workday, plus assorted other ones here or there,
probably averaging about three a day. Also
a friend has been filming one of the
current ones, so I wait to write the sonnet while we’re filming, one a week,
until we make a crown there. We’re four weeks into that one. They take anywhere
from ten to twenty minutes each, the more I’m dialed in and doing it regularly
throughout the day, the quicker they go.
DG: You realize that’s kinda fucked up, right? Like, that’s
not normal at all.
RM: Haha, yeah, totally. I think that’s the hard part too,
now that I’ve actually finished producing two books of them, is that it’s hard
for people to really understand what’s going on with them. The reason they came
out two at a time is because I actually had submitted the first book – the
Shakespeare Greenheart one – to Copper Canyon Press in their open submission
period, and it sat for a long ass time. Like I expected immediate rejection, in
that first month like they say they let most everybody know, but it never came.
Then it went two, three, four months, and I started to think, “Oh shit, they
might actually publish my crazy shit.” But they didn’t. I was already pretty
much done with the second quarter of the project though so I figured I might as
well put them out as a pair.
DG: Why did you submit them in the first place? Copper
Canyon’s one of the premier poetry presses there is, poet laureate material.
You don’t seem to be even trying to get individual poems published in journals
and the like, which is normal way to do such things. Why did you think there’d
be success in the jump to actually having a book with no other published works?
RM: I figured all they could do is say no, and ultimately
that’s all they did. I don’t really subscribe to the whole
sending-poems-off-to-literary-journals method, which sounds egotistic as fuck,
like I’m too good for that, but it’s not really that. I applied a few years
back to the MFA program at UVA, both fiction and poetry, but didn’t get into
either. I was told I almost got into the fiction program, like I was one of the
last eliminations, but a certain faculty member there felt like I might do
better through a more creative back door entry into the program, or I might
audit a class or two and realize MFA route was not for me at all. He was right.
That shit would’ve crushed me. That traditional route, which we’re still encouraged
to respect as the way a writer gains success, has very particular tricks to
that trade that you learn. There’s a certain amount of self-perpetuation that
goes on, and you learn to take part in that. You become hazed into the elite
fraternal organization of American poetry basically. I’m not really into that.
And honestly, I feel like a dick submitting a poem for publication to anything
that I wouldn’t read myself. And I wouldn’t read most of those literary
journals that would be the ones I’d have to submit myself to.
DG: You realize all of that does sound exactly like you
think you’re too good for it, right?
RM: Yeah, I guess. But I don’t feel too good for it, I just
feel different than it. A lot of respected poetry and fiction and respected
writers, they all feel the same to me. It feels like a thousand variations on
the same shit. I’d rather not be that, which of course means, I’m outside of
that, and it is exactly being that that encourages success in terms of being
accepted as what a poet or writer means to everybody else. You either play the
game as it is demanded you play it, or you’re not gonna win. It’s that simple.
DG: So you self-publish?
RM: Yeah. Self-publish books, self-publish zines, which is a culture I grew up
with, just printing it yourself. Nobody writing about what you care about? Fuck
it, write it yourself. But even with zines there was this sort of Zine
Illuminati of zine figureheads that all got book deals and everybody knew and
had their zines in national bookstores and shit like that somehow. I never
understand how that happens. Same with self-publishing these books, I don’t
understand how to make people know it exists.
DG: You mean “marketing” the books?
RM: Well yeah, I guess, but not really. I just want people
to know they’re there, and exist. I feel like what I’m doing has validity, and
deserves to be seen, but you know how you have people who say publishing has
“gatekeepers” who decide who gets in and out? Even beyond that, it feels like
there’s this giant wall that is an enclave of all that is accepted and
respected, and I can’t even see over that wall. There’s this endless drone of
noise going on, worse so now with the internet’s constant hum into our lives,
and I’m yelling over the wall to get people inside that enclave to notice what
I’m doing.
DG: But they don’t.
RM: No, they don’t. And even then, I realize what I’m doing
is not really a part of being inside that enclave, like the shit I’m writing is
for the misfits and malcontents and wretched of the earth, not those inside the
in-crowd. But even among the misfits and malcontents, they tend to look inside
those walls for what they get into, because goddamn the noise is so fucking
loud from in there, it’s hard not to look at it for everything.
DG: How do you get around that?
RM: I got no clue. I’m talking to myself, literally talking to myself, every
fucking day trying to figure it out. And you see self-publishers do these corny
ass “why I became a writer” things or hyping up projects that don’t seem all
that hype. Or you get these internet celeb writers who start to have sort of an
internet clever cult, where they say all these WACKY things that are so CLEVER
because they’re not really being weird, they’re just pretending to be weird, so
by pretending to be weird but still being functional human beings, they can be
successful and not actually threaten anyone’s safety. And I just don’t get it.
The shit is actually really confusing to me. So I don’t know how to get around
it.
DG: In our previous conversations, I’ve mentioned to you
many times about just doing the work, not worrying about what comes of it,
accumulate the pieces and keep piling them up like rocks. Nobody may ever
acknowledge the pile of rocks you’ve built up, and some folks may see it and
really love that pile of rocks, but the majority will probably never wander
across that pile of rocks you built up in the middle of nowhere, outside of I
guess that wall you’re envisioning. Has that affected you at all? Has it
changed the way you work at these projects?
RM: Well, it hasn’t changed how I work at the projects because I’m mostly
always answering to myself then anyways. I guess it’s started to make it easier
for me to let go once I’m done, and have a finished project to share with the
random ass anonymous public that exists as this mythological entity with all
sorts of discretionary income to spend, so that once I finish these two books
and they are physically available for people, or I finish this music project I
did with this guy Finn, I can shout into the droning void of social media,
“HEY, I DID THIS NEW THING!” for a couple days, and then let it go. But it
still bothers me. I mean if you’re doing these things, and you think it’s
amazing, you want people to check it out.
DG: You ever think about the fact maybe it’s not that
amazing?
RM: Yeah. I mean you see people who do shit themselves, and it’s horrible. I
could name a few, but then again a few could probably name me, too. Look, when
I say what I’m doing is amazing, that doesn’t mean I think I’m some sort of
genius or some shit like that. Honestly, I feel like anybody could do what I
do. In the basic pit of human potential everybody has, everybody is born with,
anybody could do these things. But nobody else is, that I know of. And the
things that are considered great by our cultural tastemakers, even the offbeat
internet ones, don’t always seem that great usually.
I was lucky enough to be involved with a program called Open
Minds in the Richmond City Jail, through a friend Liz Canfield, and met the guy
who ran the jail school John Dooley. I sat in on a handful of classes of these
people who were in the jail program, writing, filling composition books, not
because of what they were supposed to, but because they had to, and it made
them better people. That experience changed my perspective, for the better.
Being part of that ultimately was my MFA program, to where now I’m trying to
get through the bureaucratic hurdles to facilitate a similar writing program
local to myself. It hasn’t happened yet, and fuck, after almost a year of
emailing motherfuckers about it every month, I don’t know that it ever will.
But I’d like it to. That writing from people society deemed unfit for freedom,
was realer than any of the shit I heard in other classes. It was realer than
any of the soft-spoken tired but acceptable metaphorical spiel I heard at
poetry readings.
So what makes one person a successful MFA candidate, and
another person somebody scribbling raps into a composition book in jail? Luck.
Chance. Where you were born basically, and the connections both to other people
as well as environment that your birth gives you. It shook the meritocracy
notion for me.
DG: And yet, here we are, me interviewing you, which is
essentially talking to yourself, to attempt to circumvent around to the inside
of that wall, to that meritocracy still. Why?
RM: Haha, I have no fuckin’ clue. I love what I do. I love
the poetry, I love the stories and essays I put in my Rojonekku Word Fighting
Arts zines, I love the music I’m doing now, which I hadn’t done in a couple
years, but I’ve got two or three different music projects going now too. It all
doesn’t really feel like choice. I’d be a very unhappy, depressed, and likely
suicidal person if I wasn’t doing it all.
DG: Shouldn’t that be enough? Why the fuck does it matter if
strangers know it exists?
RM: Yeah. I don’t know. Like I said, I don’t read literary
journals or shit like that. I mostly read old poets, used to always be hermit
Chinese poets but the past couple years I’ve been studying the old Islamic mystic
poets and philosophers a lot more. They tended to be that way too, to where
they were doing all sorts of shit constantly, but there seemed to be an
appreciation that was available to them, although I guess that’s filtered
through the perspective of time. They might not have had that during their
lifetime.
DG: So what’s next? You’ve released these two books, what do
you do now?
RM: I’m just about done with the third set, just finished my
50th heroic crown last week actually. Once I get to 57, that’ll be the third
book, then 76 to finish the whole project. I’m contemplating another
sonnet-specific project after that, then shutting down from sonnets probably.
I’m hoping to do some readings for these two books various places, try to sell
books out the back of my truck like old school rappers selling mixtapes.
DG: At independent bookstores?
RM: Hahaha, no, not even. Independent bookstores are still very much inside
those walls I was talking about earlier. I’m on the outside, so I figured might
as well embrace that. I’m talking about doing readings by the river, selling
books on the spot, catching a Greyhound to Pittsburgh or Cleveland or east
Tennessee or really wherever somebody might give me a couch to sleep on that
night before catching a bus home the next morning, to just read my shit out in
the open, for whoever’s apt to come to those things, or fuck it, just for the
trees if that’s all that’s there. People tend to suck anyways. Whenever the
tree-to-person ratio gets below like a 5.0, it starts to get frustrating. But
trees don’t buy books, and in fact my books are printed on tree flesh, which is
really fucked up now that I think about it. I guess that goes back to our human
nature complicating things.
DG: Well, good luck Raven Mack.
RM: Thank you, Dirt-god.
Raven Mack can be reached through this site you are already looking at. If you'd like Raven Mack to come talk shit somewhere convenient to you, hit him up. Meaning me.